SPEAKER_01 0:00

Navaste, and welcome to the Kapil Gupta Career Pod Show, the place where we decode real career journeys and discover what it truly takes to live a life of purpose. And today we are honored to host a leader whose very presence carries the discipline, courage, and aura of the Indian Armed Forces. Major General Sami Sabarwal served the Indian Army with distinction for nearly four decades in the elite regiment of artillery, an aluminus of the prestigious Rajya Indian Military College in Deheradun and the National Defense Academy. He has commanded troops in challenging terrains, mentoring young officers at the School of Artillery, and even served as United Nations military observer in Rwanda. He later led as the general officer commanding Uttarakhand Sab area and as additional director general of National Karet Corps for Bihar and Charkat. And after hanging up his uniform, Major General Sabawal continues to inspire thousands of defense aspirants as a mentor and SSB interviewing officer, shaping the next generation of Indian military leaders. So, General Sabawal, it's an absolute privilege to have you with us today. Your journey is a living example of service and honor. And I'm sure our listeners, especially the young men and women dreaming of a life in uniform, are going to learn priceless lessons from it. So thank you, sir. Thank you for joining us today. So the honor is all mine, and I'm sure all my listeners, because they are career aspirants and all those who have this hidden desire to join the armed forces, they'll get golden nuggets and real life examples listening from you. So I'm sure, yes, as you said, it'll be a wonderful podcast and love listening to you. And sir, to begin with, like we always say the calling. So what first inspired you to choose a life in the armed forces? And when did you know that this was your true path? Because I meet students who are in 12th, even in college, and they are still clueless. So what about you, sir?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Very interesting question. You know, actually, Kapil, if I tell you very honestly, I think uh the destiny uh was the reason why I ended up in the armed forces. You'll be surprised when I'm giving this credit to destiny, because you know, I'm talking of year of the Lord 1968. I was just about eight years old, and my father, his business is there in Saharan, was there in Saranpur that time. So one of his very close friends, one day he, you know, because my father's office was next to Clock Tav. So he passed from there, he took a little uh, you know, a halt at my father's office and he said, I'm going to drop my son to RIMC. And he said, You also have a son, why don't you uh also put him in RIMC? Now he went to Diratun from Saharanpur, dropped his son. On his way back, he again, you know, halted at my father's office, gave him the previous papers and the prospectus of RIMC. Now, you know, just look at the you know destiny part. Thereafter, like every Sunday, my father would take me with him to the office. He will set you know papers for me and would make me solve mathematical problems, you know, basically first enhancing my you know basic skills. So three years I was every Sunday, I was there with my father's office doing that. And uh thereafter, you know, we were that time UP had two seats every six months. So we went to Lucknow for the written exam thereafter the interview, and uh lo below, uh I cleared it and I landed up in RIMC. Now, once you land up in RIMC, then you're you know like a horse who's being ripped, you know, taken in a particular direction. And by the end of five years, you know, you could not think of anything other than armed forces. So that is why, you know, in my case, because my complete family comes from a business background. I'm the only person who's come to the armed forces. Wow. So that end I thank my uncle, who actually, you know, uh got those prospectors and the papers, and my and of course my father, who actually became the leading light, and that is where you know life took me.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

But this is really surprising, sir, that coming from a business family, and usually we say that uh parents want the kids to follow their footsteps because usually we say in a business family, the uh you can say the future is kind of secure, or they want children to take up and you know grow that business. So, how come he agreed to it that you joining the army you know it's very interesting?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Actually, my grandfather, like uh he also had a business, and they, you know, at that time uh during the World War II and all, so they used to, you know, like uh they were dealing with the British armed forces that time. So my father was a young teenager, and he had seen uh the armed forces in a very close quarter, and he felt, yeah, this is the right place to be in. But then partition happened, everything got dislocated. So he, you know, so that is why for him uh he said, fine, you know, if I could not fulfill that dream, if my son gets that opportunity, let him let him do it. And that is why you know he did not put any stop in my life.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Great, and his decision India got a fabulous officer like you.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

No, in fact, I would say that you know, when I look back, when I actually honestly look back, I feel that I guess uh I don't think I would have done that much justice in the business environment the way I could do it in the armed forces, which you know you can only say it in retrospect.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Right, right, right, right. So that's why I said key because of his vision, India got an officer like you. So thanks to him. Thank you, yes, yes, yes, and sir, like and if I ask you, because it was your uncle's vision, your father's vision to make you join that RIMC and ND, but how did they shape your career? How what changes or what differences difference it made to your life? And if I may ask you, what was the toughest lesson you learned as a cadet there?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Uh you know, actually, uh let's be very honest. I was just about 11 and a half years of age, not even 11 and a half complete, when I ended up in the portal of the RIMC. Now that's a very, very tender age. And in a in you know, when you look that at that age, a child, whether it's a boy or a girl, is living in a very, very protected environment. Right. And uh there is no responsibility which is you know put on his shoulder, especially if you come from a little respectable background, because things come to you naturally. Now, the first thing over here was you have to do up everything yourself, your clothes, your everything. So the first thing which comes is start becoming independent. That was the first baby step.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

You know, I will not talk of discipline because discipline is synonymous with the armed forces. If somebody says discipline and armed forces are different, they are not. They're two sides of the same point. But there are other things which are equally important. So, first is being independent, because unless I become independent, I can't lead others. Then, moment you put in six months in the school, now the next new batch which comes. So you have somebody under you whom you are supposed to now guide and you know uh lead. So that's the next step is you become the cadet guardian, as we call it. So everything that he does, you are responsible for it. So next is sense of responsibility, you know, because sense of responsibility being ingrained to you when you're just about 11, 12 is remarkable. Then the third thing which comes is that you see, uh, we uh whether it was in your era or my era, uh normally sports and other activities were generally given a backstage. We are more focused, yeah, study hard, get good marks. But here in RIMC it was a balanced approach. You have to be good physically, you have to play games, and also do well in academics. So now this the one word which I have for it, it's called a well-rounded personality. That you have a personality which is very balanced and rounded. It is not either sports or either academics, it is a mix of both, and that is what healthy mix of both, what ultimately counts. You know, uh like I can I would like to give you an example here because I do a lot of interviews of children, and uh when they count, so I ask them questions, especially when they're going for SSB, what physical activity are you doing uh for you know for your SSB? You know, if I tell you some of the answers I get, sir, I run one kilometer, I run two kilometers. You know what I tell them then? I tell them, I said, see, from my Scotland to our academic block, which we call it the Sudan block in India, I said that if the day your your cycle is not working or the sergeant has is little benevolent on you, the cycle is on top of your head, you have to run more than one kilometer to reach over there. So, what you are doing in a day, we were doing it in a jiffy like this. But you think by telling the infaster that you ran one or two kilometers, he's going to be impressed? No, you have to increase it. So, you know, when I you know when I said, I meant that you know, in RIMC, besides the sense of responsibility that one learned and being independent, the best thing which learned one developed was a well-rounded personality. And without a well-rounded personality, whether you are in CV street or in army, you can't you can't work. It is it is a prerequisite to do well in life.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

So, sir, does that mean that if somebody wants to join uh this so a person needs to be good physically fit earlier, also? Or he a person can start training after joining?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Uh see, uh very pertinent question. Actually, you know, I would say that physical fitness should start from the day one, the day you are born. You know, logically, that is how it should be. But then, you know, everybody is not that fortunate. You may not get that many opportunities, you know. But the fact is that if you have some base level of physical fitness, rest NDA, don't worry, NDA will ensure in those three years you they will make you fit. But then, you know, it is time to cope up, it becomes that much harder. So if you have started earlier, it helps, you know, because ultimately, please understand that you are doing something at the age of 17, which I started doing at the age of 11. I definitely have an edge over you. Uh so by the time you try to catch up with me, a lot of time would be gone.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Right, right. So true. Yes, yes, fully agree, sir. So I'm sure the listeners will understand what is the importance of starting early if they really want to make a mark in this. And can you describe a typical day of a young officer in the artillery? And what kind of mental and physical preparation does it demand? Look, I'm sure artillery is something at an altogether different level.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

See, actually, artillery, uh, you know, like any unit, why artillery, even infantry? We there is one basic regime we follow. The basic regime is whether you are in infantry or artillery, you will start with PT in the morning, which may start at 5.45, 6, 6.15, depending on the season. So in winter it will be at 6.15 and in summers it will be at 5.45. So PT, you come back, you after the PT, you spend some time with the troops, come back, have breakfast, and come back to office. Now, uh, you see, there are two regimes. One is your peacetime routine training, which you do, and thereafter, that is individual training. So we have like various upgrading cards, competitions for like sports, and so those activities go on during the daytime, amongst other things. Then, because firstly, you must know a skill individually, then it becomes collective training. So, in collective training, like in artillery, we call it as practice camp. So, in practice camp, because see we have guns, and guns don't like whatever, because it's a fall of shot which is visible to everybody. You can't say it is visible on the target, so you can't make a mistake, there is no scope for error. So, all this part of the training is first done individually. You learn the skills, you own the skills, then for about six weeks, you go to the ranges, you practice over there, and then you carry out there is something called execution of a fire plan where uh let's say infantry has to capture objective and you have to do firing on that objective so that the infantry can then walk through or rather charge through and capture the objective. So now the targets are there, the firing comes. So there is somebody like a young captain, he is the observation post officer, he is the one who's supposed to guide the fire. So, unless he knows the nuances of how to bring the fire, how to call the fire, and then if the round has fallen left, right, or short, then how to get it back onto the target. Now, these are the nuances which you learn during the peacetime, and then you practice it during the practice camp, which is selective training. So this is one part. Then the second part is that which we call it as op alert, which is called operational alert. So you that is separate from this practice camp. In that firing does not take place. This is exercising the commanders. Basically, you know, like let's say a formation has gone on off alert. So basically, it's to rehearse the operation rules. So if you are in defensive, you go and clean up your defenses, take up your positions, decide that if the enemy comes from here, this is how we will do it. Now, that is another one. So basically, if you look at it, uh any soldier, even if he's in the peace area, for about two and a half to three months in a year, he's out from the barracks to the field where he's supposed to practice for the for the operations. That is how, in a very, very nutshell, because I don't want to make it complicated, otherwise, the views will not understand it and they will not find it very interesting. So it is in a nutshell, that is how uh we as soldiers work and operate.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

But sir, many a times like we see in TV serials or movies that cadets getting up early, like okay, 5 30. I'm I won't say it's too early, but it's uh uh very legitimate. But uh doing exercises still late at night, they don't get proper sleep time. Is it actually how at it happens during the uh training?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Uh see, uh, in when I talk to you about uh the practice camp, the final two days of the camp, because you have to do so much of work that actually you don't get time to sleep. Actually, they are giving you a full triage rehearsal that if you are to stay awake and work for said 48 hours, you should be able to do it. And a similar kind of a thing is done for the commanders at the operating. Here it is with the troops over there. Troops are in skeleton. Basically, it is exercising the hierarchy, all junior leaders to the middle level leaders, everybody is exercised. So that is done towards the end. In between, you know, you do dry research for the same thing. That is how six weeks or four weeks of operat is utilized.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Okay, okay. Thank you, thank you, sir. And now coming to uh something more interesting, and I'm sure all the students or the teenager would love to hear it from you. That could you share one mission or operation that truly tested your courage and decision making?

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SPEAKER_00 19:17

Actually, uh, there are a couple of things, you know, which I would like to share with you. He at each level,

(Cont.) Behind the Uniform: Life Inside the Indian Army with Major General Shammi Sabharwal (Retd.)

SPEAKER_00 19:23

you know, uh uh your uh your thought process changes. You know, what I was telling you was that I will tell you something about as a major, we were deployed in JMK, uh, and uh now that is a time, like as a major uh elections were on, we had to uh kind of you know, we were told that while you know 4Gs never interfere in the election process, but all these, if you see uh people uh you know who are there in remote areas, uh, you know, the shepherds who take their bakerbad as we call them, they are up in the hill ranges, they're practicing, you know, they are taking their cattle and all. One challenge was to ensure that these people come down and participate in the election process without influencing them.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Second was the challenge was that they were militants who could have hijacked the process. Right. So now uh, you know, like I was, if I tell you that my uh unit headquarter was where the road had finished, there was no road after that. Okay, and my uh, you know, like headquarters was for that time I was very, very young and agile. It took me about one hour of walking on that mountainous track to reach my location. And from there I had another two outposts. One was about 40, one was about 40 minutes away, one was about one and a half hours away. And I was expected to go at least once to these two places in a week. Okay, and in addition to that, do other patrolling. So you can imagine that what kind of gruesome routine one was following, and mature sanctity of your area. Along with that, you had to also convince these people that you know you please go and do the voting now. Uh so now, you know, you have to you have your own challenges. So, what I did now, which is you know, which is actually some people may challenge the you know validity of it, that's a different part. So I said, because I know these people are there in remote areas, they normally need kerosene and all for burning and all. So I said, those of you who will go, so when you passed, because uh they had to pass through my check post. I said, you endroast yourself here that you are going down, election kebad, when you come back, you will get a bottle of kerosene also. Now that's the inducement I gave them. I said, okay, do whosoever you vote is not my concern. My concern is the voting percentage should be.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

So that was one, you know, like challenge, which was, you know, now you have to think out of box, and we did it, and we had a good percentage that time.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

The second challenge which was there, of course, you know, which had external factors involved. I was posted in Shirinagar at that time, that was 2005, 6. And uh, you know, uh Shirinagar is uh located on the banks of Jhelam River. And I was responsible for disaster management. Now, so now you know dredging of this Dal Lake and the Chalam River had not been done for quite some time. Now, every time during the civil military live on conference, you know, we had been telling them that you have to do the dredging. But then, you know, you can't force them. Ultimately, we can only advise. Now, moment you know the rains would start. And if even if it was a very mild drizzle for about say 24 hours, now the water level in the will cross the danger mark. Now, once it crosses the danger mark, now see the challenge which comes. Now the thing is uh beyond a certain point, if the water crosses a danger mark, uh the options are two either you have Srinagar flooded or you break the bank somewhere upstream so that the water from there goes into some of the villages and enters and those areas get flooded. You know, it's a it's a choice between the devil and the deep sea.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Now, as as a as a you know, since I was responsible for disaster management, so we had the engineer companies and we knew which are the places where you are supposed to do the blasting so that the water, you know, pressure on the river is reduced and the Shirunagar Valley is saved. Now, this resilience to break has to be given by the civil administration. I can't take it. I can't take it. It was not I now can you beat it? Like the water level is going up, and you're continuously talking with your counterpart in the civil at midnight, and they are saying cabinet meeting is gone, they will decide. Okay. Now the thing is those were those sleepless nights, not only for me but for my family. Because you are on Tinderflux, and there was another thing which was there was that the villagers over a period of time knew these are the places where the breach will take place. So the villagers also had their own monitoring team who was standing there to ensure that the army does not do the breaching there. Now that is another complicity.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Uh, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

You want to do a breach, and I know it when you're going to do it here, and my house is going to get flooded. So people they are guarding because they want their village to be safe.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

So those two, three, four days, till such, and fortunately, at least in my tenure, both the monsoons, the water level will go up much beyond the danger level. But and every both the seasons, we had this problem. The civil atom did nothing about it. I left that place, and you know, God was kind on me. But if you recall, after a couple of years, because since the civil atom did nothing, then those massive floods, when they came, uh they flooded Shri Nagar. Now, the thing is that if you take a lesson, you learn something out of it. But for me, those those moments, those days were very, very, you know, tough and challenging, not only for me, but my family who was there who knew this man is awake because anytime, any order can come and anything can happen. Those very, very tough times.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Agree, agree, sir.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

That that you know, when you see the complexities of the whole thing, then you realize the challenges is not restricted to just breaching. There are so many other imponderables which are there attached to that.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Right, right, right. That is how it works. No, fully agree, sir. Fully agree. And as you mentioned, that you know, family back home, varvarate, you know, and that is very, very real. So behind every soldier is a family, right? That serves in its own way. Usually we talk about soldiers having the hardships, but that is true that even the family goes through a lot. So, how did your family cope with the uncertainty and your postings, you know, at so difficult terrains at difficult areas?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

See, uh, you know, I would put it like this that uh normally I ensured that wherever I went, it was a you know a conscious decision that we will stay together. Like in Srinagar, when I was I had two tenures there of two years each, I had the option to keep my family in dairy, but we decided that we will stay together. Because you see, when you're together, it gives a lot of strength. Of course, it has its pitfalls, but then it had a lot of positives. Now the thing is your family is next to you, so when they see you with the pain, it reduces your pain, but then somebody else is also taking part of that shape, and that happens in most cases. And now imagine if my family is there in Delhi, either they will know what's happening here or they will not know what is happening, but they know then the pain for them is much higher because they personally they are helpless, they don't even know how much of suffering I'm taking.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Right, right. So to many a times, for example, you were posted in JNK, and what as a civilian, whatever knowledge I have is only through newspapers or media channels, right? And we see that the kind of hardships uh the soldiers face there. So don't you think if the soldiers have their families also there, it increases their risk.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yes, actually, you see, uh thing is that like uh people, you know, there's some place where you can't keep family at all. But even for those people, the option was that you could keep your family in Shirinagar. So you know, once in a while you come back. So, because you see, now those who are in posted in Rashtra rifles. Now, in Rashtra Rifle, you are operating in company basics, so you can't have families there. You know, it's a very hard field conditions. But we have separated quarters in Shirinagar where people had the option of keeping their families, and quite a few of them kept also. It's not that they did not keep. So uh it was a mixed plot. And trust me, my first tenure in Shirinagar was in 2000, 2001. That was the time when militancy was at its peak. When I say peak, it means peak. You like we were there in BB Cant, you could not leave BB Cant without either the escort, and you could only go if you're going on official duty or you're going on leave. In that case, you should have your a ticket with you, or you go in the convoy. There was no other way you could come out. The strings were that strict. So we were actually lived in that condition, and you know, here I would like to narrate to you one incident. You know, this was uh year of the Lord 2000, uh, Christmas time, 25th December. You know, that was Vatpai government and George Fernandez was a Raksha Mantri. Okay, now George Fernandez had started this trend that on Christmas he would go first go to Leh, spend time with the troops, then come to Sri Nagar, have an interaction, and then go back to Bangalore. Okay, so now uh since uh George Fernandez was going to Srinagar and he was to thereafter around 11:30, 12, he was to land up at the Shirinagar Air C. Now I was operations man, so and that time you know we did not have these laptops and all. So, and my boss had to give him a presentation, so in a vehicle, we put those desktop computers and all to take it to the VIP lounge of uh Shirinaga Airport. Okay, and I think I must have crossed the BBCAND gate around nine o'clock. Okay, and after about 15 or 20 minutes, there was a fedine attack on the gate where a truck full of explosives it hicked through onto the main gate. A lot of people did uh like you know, if I if I say that if I was 15 minutes late, you wouldn't have been interacting with me. Okay, in crossing that gate, if I was 15 minutes late, you would have been interacting with me. And you know, moment it came up, my father, you know, like he saw on the news, he called up where are you? Okay, because by then I had not seen the news. So that this thing has happened in our absence. So, you know, those are the complexities which were there at that time, right? But uh, I guess life goes on now. Things are much, much, much better, hundred times better than what it was 25 years back.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yes, yes, yes, yeah. This is really adventurous, I would say. No, I don't have the right words actually to express what I'm feeling while listening to this.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

I would say it's destiny, it's destiny. Destiny is one word which comes to my mind.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

So going back to the, I would say, the earlier days, uh, as people say that being disciplined and being a soldier is like synonymous, right? We always say that there is a unique aura of discipline and confidence around a soldier. So, but how a soldier is able to build this aura? Because as I understand that if such discipline we are able to build in our daily lives, I'm sure everyone's life will be different. But we associate discipline confidence only with the soldiers, not with the other people. So, what guidance can you give so that we can build in our daily lives as well?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

See, actually, uh what happens is that they say that if you, you know, like character variants at home, if you see discipline in your house, you see discipline in the school, it automatically starts getting ingrained in your system that yes, this is the way of life. What happens is that either we see in our own house there is no discipline, that jalta hai attitude, or you are in the school where again not much impetus is given. And in fact, that is one of the reasons why, you know, uh, like even after independence, a lot of people had said that everybody must get you know compulsory military training for one to two years. Now, while that is not feasible in a country like ours, but then there is something called NCC. So a lot of people who join there, they also in you know, uh that thing gets ingrained into them. But ultimately, I feel uh discipline is also part of our attitude. That once we say yes, I will try to be disciplined. I tell you, like here also, I've seen a lot of people uh who follow discipline who are punctual. And I've and he and those people have themselves said that because of their following a disciplined life, they create an impression in front of others, teacher, are you retired from the army? And they say, no, we are not retired from the army, but because we are following disciplined life, we are generating that kind of aura around us. So I would like to tell everybody through your uh you know, forum that make discipline as your attitude towards life. Yes, I should be taught on time. I've seen a lot of journals, you know, when uh we have say a presentation or something. So, like the VIP, let's say 630 is the VIP's time, and we used to say he would enter exact when it is 630. So you could time your clock with that. Now they were the ones who actually become the bedrock examples for everybody. So that is why I feel you know it has to come from within. You can't inject it beyond a point.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Right. Because uh I connect with teenagers all the time, and you know, nowadays in the world of social media, they take pride in staying late till midnight or like two to even 3 a.m. in the morning. Then they get up in the afternoon, I would say they have not seen the rising sun, but they want to succeed in life. So personally, I feel it is contradictory. You cannot have both these things, absolutely. So you have to come out of your comfort zone and as you rightly said, be discipline is an attitude. Yes, we must understand and we have to develop that, and that will automatically serve its purpose in all our areas of life. And thank you for saying that. I'm sure this is a golden nugget which the teenagers must understand because that is so very important in our lives. Yes, sir. Thank you for saying that, sir.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Absolutely, and you know, in fact, um I I know of some businessmen, like if they have given you appointment for let's say 11:30, and and you have come there for a sales pitch or something, and you landed up there late, they don't entertain you. If you are going to be late here, I don't think we can do a deal with you. Right now, so that is the importance of discipline. You know, ultimately, you can't be rushing uh for something. You have to always better that you have an important thing on. Reach there half an hour early. What is the harm?

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

You'll be more comfortable, you'll understand the environment. You might get some people to talk to you who will firstly build up your confidence, you might get some information, you know, which otherwise you may not get, which will help you in cracking that beat. Because ultimately, see, you come to a company where the subordinates, you talk to somebody, he will tell you are a boss guy, just be careful. He does this. No, you are forewarned, and you never know. Sometimes those small nuggets which you get there can actually help to uh crack the teeth.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Right, right. Exactly. And when we are on time, we are able to stay calm and we are able to talk sense, also. I would say that. Yes, sir. And sir, we read in the newspapers that Indian armed forces take part in the global missions as well. Even you serving as a United Nations military observer in Rwanda, it's actually rare. So, what global lessons did you bring back from that role? And one curiosity that I have is why do we send our troops? Is it really necessary? Should we be doing it? What is your take? Because I want to understand that.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

You see, I went on a UN mission in 1995. I was a major. Okay. And in 1994, I had finished my defense, you know, I had uh completed my defense services staff college course, which is a competitive course. And unless you have done that course, at least because in our time, because prior to that, we were only sending, say, an ambulance, say some course, but we never sent regular troops uh on a UN mission. Okay, it's like I went in 95, it's the the gates only opened somewhere in 92, 93 onwards. Prior to that, we were just sending a very notional kind of a thing. Now, there are a lot of advantages which accrue, firstly, to the nation and secondly to the individual who goes.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

See what now I will first talk about the national level because ultimately see the nation first. We are my personal thing comes later, the nation first. Now, we as a nation as a nation are looking for a seat in United Nations Security Council as a permanent member.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

So don't you think my first thing is don't you think our presence should be felt in all fields of life in the UN?

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

And this is one place where you can have your presence felt.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Okay. Secondly, you see, uh, United Nations does not have a standing army. Okay. So any country which sends the armed forces, the UN pays for it. So let's say if an infantry battalion has gone to a place A, then the complete equipment and coutre money for that duration that that force is there is paid for by the United Nations. That's the first thing. Okay. Secondly, you are you're buying new equipment from your own country and you're taking it there. And after one, two years, when you're getting it back, then you see if you know a little bit about depreciation, which is done. So if you bought, say, a vehicle for once year, after first year, 30-35% depreciation, the cost is only 60 odd lakhs. After two to three years, if value comes down to just 25-30 lakhs. So you have only used that equipment for two, three years, you come back and pay just a chicken feed amount to get back that equipment with you, which can be used for another 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

So that's the second benefit. Okay. Thirdly, you see, when like I will give you the example of Rwanda where we went. Okay. So when we went in '95, there was one mission which had like our predecessor, we relieved them and we landed up there. So, like we went as military observers. There was also a contingent of ours, Indian battalion, which was there. Okay, so they were authorized to carry the weapons. We were military observers, not authorized to carry weapons.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Okay. So we were dropped into various sectors. So I'll talk first about the observers where our role was there, and then I'll talk about the infantry battalion which was there at Kigari in Rwanda, okay, the capital of Rwanda.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Now they were people uh, you know, officers from 23 nationalities, including Pakistan, USA, Canada, and also. Okay. And if I tell you that, like we Indians officers were so good that most of the important appointments which were there in those sectors ended up in our land. We were the ones who were controlling the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

So we we were cut above others, and people could see it that they are better than others. Okay. Like our mission became humanitarian mission after that by that time I joined after some time. So I was actually operating with people like UNHCR, ICRC, human rights, concern, all these organizations about which at that time I only read it in the journal knowledge book. I never knew them or interacted with them on ground. Now I was seeing them face to face and I was operating with them. Imagine how much my horizon would have widened in that one year that I was there, working with these people, how they operate. And you could also impress them as to how we are cut above the others. Okay, now I will talk about the Indian Battalion because that is very important based at Kegali. So they were also responsible for our security to a large extent. So we had gone to Kegali, I don't recall why, but then on our way back, uh, one of the human Activists uh because uh place we stopped over. Now, this lady, moment she saw R you Indian, he says your end back is the best. I was you know surprised as to why she's so gag about Indian Armed Forces. So then I said, What happened? He says, you know, uh a couple of uh days back, uh, there were some you know uh mischievous elements they were trying to you know intrude into our house, and she got very scared. So she called up firstly the local police, no response, and then on the radio, she called up the End Bat, Indian Battalion that we call that NBAT over there. Okay, she said, I on the Motola, I said NBAT for the help. And I said, by the time I I kept my phone down, the patrol of Indian Battalion was already there at my gate. He said, You people, how you do it? Now, see, now these people have come from various countries. We, you know, if you look at it, a lot of human rights organizations and all, they keep criticizing India for our human rights records, this, that, but because they have only been fed negative news about us. Now, here those some of those activists who have actually seen what we are doing, they carry that impression for life. They carry that impression for life, and they tell hundred more people in that nothing like it. In the props, they are the best. Now, fast forward, December 95, the mission was getting downsized. Okay, so when from 6,000, if the mission comes down to 3,000, what should happen? Everybody should get downsized, all nationalities should get downsized, all other countries' strength comes down, Indian strength goes up. Okay, how do you like that? Okay. Now that speaks volumes about the Indian Army, you know, and I don't think I can give you a better example than that as to what better professionalism we would have actually exhibited over there. That our troops go up, our military observers don't come down, whereas all others see a reduction in strength. That is what is Indian Army, sir.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

What you just narrated, you know, there's a question that actually created curiosity for many years in my mind. See, when I read the news about the armed forces of other countries, there is a certain level of brutality that is visible. But when I read or try to understand about the Indian armed forces, on one hand, they are treated as one of the most disciplined, very powerful, very strong, and like two sides of the same coin. All of a sudden they change their avatar and become so humanly helping people, so soft, so caring. So how are you able to maintain that that two different aspects? I'm sure that's true. Otherwise, we say a person carrying a weapon needs to be cruel, needs to be brutal. But Indian army is not that way. On one hand, you're so soft, so caring, and on the other hand, you are protecting the borders so bravely. And how do you do that?

SPEAKER_00 48:42

You know, uh uh if I just use one sentence, that what we are told is uh, you know, uh iron fist in a velvet glove. You have to be very, very soft, and it is ingrained into us that with people who are civilians, people who are women, people who are children, you have to be extra soft with them. And when required, take out the iron fist and give a knock-out. And that is what uh our troops have learned from day one. That is what is ingrained into them. And trust me, you know, at least I can say one thing with conviction that the kind of record which our troops have observed in terms of ensuring that there are no human rights violations, you know, an odd immigration here and there I will not take. But we have the best track record. No other armed force in the world can match us anyway. They just can't match us. I've seen all nationalities, and in that diaspora over there, I can tell you that uh people used to look at us with awe. We are they are much, much better than us, and that is how possibly, you know, I would salute the RIMC, the NDA, the IMA who actually made us that way.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Yes, sir. So it's getting interesting. Thank you, sir. Thank you. And now getting academic now, because obviously this podcast is for aspirants. So many listeners dream of cracking NDA, CDS, or SSB, but then there is a fear of difficulty. And in fact, in India, when we talk of competition, it is just about everywhere. But then what is that one mindset shift they must make today if they really want to be a part of it? What is your guidance on that?

SPEAKER_00 50:55

See, uh, if you know somebody is looking at say NDA or looking at CDS, uh so the first thing he has to do is that he has to be consistent. If you're not consistent, it won't help you. And in consistency, as I started all-round personality, please ensure your physical fitness. You see, for an NDA aspirant, he still has the luxury that three years he will get in NDA to make up for it. But for a CDS candidate, he's already done his graduation. Yes, the time is already running out. So if he has if he is not physically fit, he will find himself at a disadvantage at SSP. So he has to ensure that his physical fitness is of the high order. Secondly, you know, uh again I come back to the word attitude because see in SSP, you have a lot of tests to check are you having a negative approach or the positive approach. Now, if you start having a positive mindset from day one, it will help you. Because ultimately, see, if I'm looking at glass half empty, I will look at everything which comes in my life as half empty. But if I'm looking at glass half full, my approach has become that way because please understand, I have always told people that we are not an American army. We are Indian Army, we have to manage in limited resources. We are not a country who can filter away resources, so we have to learn to do things in limited resources. So you can't keep crying, here you have given me only half a glass. How do you think I will manage or how will I fight a battle? Now that mindset has to be very, very important. Because otherwise, you will not be able to crack the SSP. You may be able to crack the rhythmic exam. But SLB, unless you have the right mindset, it won't help you. Secondly, communication skills. See, ultimately, please understand you may have wealth of knowledge in your mind, but if you can't communicate with me properly, what is the use of that knowledge? Exactly. Agreed. And the third thing which is linked to this is that you know, uh, a lot of people don't look at this aspect seriously. Every man is a social animal now. Social aspect is also very important. You know, people think that I'm in my own cocoon, I can work, it doesn't happen. Trust me, it doesn't happen. It can't work that way. You have to be uh socially also adaptable. You know, I'll tell you something very interesting, and then I will come to one of the questions which you know, a question which comes up in the SSP. That when I was a second lieutenant and from my post, first posting was in second, we came down to Deradun as the second posting. So whenever there used to be a regimental party, so the junior most officer, he told you, okay, all the officers while you are there, go and ask them what drink do they want. So I'll go, ma'am, good evening, ma'am. What drink would you prefer? Then to the second, to the third. It is not that the waiter or somebody else cannot ask. You know, if I take it negatively, then I will say I'm not a waiter. But actually, there is an essence and a meaning behind it. They know that this 22-year-old boy, he's still, he's, you know, he's become an officer, but there is still a childish, a childlike, you know, mindset in him. He'll be hesitant to talk to the opposite gender. And I'm talking to the 80s when you hardly could communicate with the pharaoh gender. This is the only way he'll be able to break the ice. Because when he go there once, twice, he will talk, he will develop that confidence to talk to the opposite gender. You know, there is so much of ethos behind it. You have to understand that ethos. Why is a youngster being told to ask and then do small talk? Because unless you do small, do big talk, and that is why a lot of times uh an interim officer ends up asking uh a boy candidate, do you have a girlfriend? Now the thing is, we carry girlfriend as a different connotation, but actually, that is not what is the question that he's asking. He's asking, Do you have a friend who's also from the opposite gender? So now when I take my sessions with the children, I tell them, I said, see, you must say, sir, I have friends who are girls, but my best friend is Ramesh. What the best friend to wear Ramesh, but I also have friends who are girls with whom I can exchange notes, I can, you know, uh treat somebody for a cup of coffee that shows that I'm socially adaptable by nature. He's actually looking at that, he's not looking at something else that which is uh which is dirty in your mind. It is not what he's looking at. Now, these are the things that children don't understand, and these are those minor things which you have to understand. That social adaptability is very important. Because if I'm not socially adaptable, I will not talk to people who are not familiar, and that doesn't work because see Nami, uh, you get posted every two, three years, new people, new environment. So adaptability is has to be uh ingrained into your system. So this is very important.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

No, no, so true. Now that's a actually a beautiful example. Thank you, sir, for sharing it, and it makes a lot of sense, right? And sir, now you though we say a soldier is never on a holiday, a soldier never retires, but yes, you've transitioned now from military life to civilian mentoring. So, what challenges did you face? And if I may ask you, how did you reinvent yourself? Because as civilians, I do understand we are not so disciplined. So, how are you able to cap up cope up with that?

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Very interesting. You know, in fact, I will you know, I will tell you something over here that uh uh all the children who interact with me, uh they feel that sir, we it it doesn't give us the impression that we are talking to such a senior retired officer.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Yes, you you made me so comfortable, sir. I fully agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

So the reason for that is that you know, like uh, you know, again, I will again attribute it to destiny. You must listen to this story, which is very interesting. I was at UC Saberia in Deragu, which is a very, very hot appointment. And from here, you know, in 2016, I got my posting to Patna. Okay, Markna word Patna. I was head of NCC Bihar in Jharkan, but word Patna and Bihar does not evoke a very positive emotion in anybody's mind. Okay, and Nirtesh had just become the chief minister again, and he had applied prohibition this time, 2016, somewhere in April, May, May, he had said prohibition in the state. Now, see, I'm not alcoholic by nature, I don't mind taking an odd drink in a social environment, but I also am perverse to the idea of somebody putting a gun on my head and saying you will not do this. Okay. So I was not, I said your last posting. Why have I got a posting like this? So, you know, I those 10, 12 days before I landed up in Patna, I was brooding. Then I had six group headquarters under me, four in uh Bihar and two in Jharkhand. So in the next 15 days, I had to visit all my group headquarters where the brigadiers are the heads. I came back by then now about three weeks had gone. Now I said, Sabi, you have about give or take 22 months. You up to roke choice is with me, it is not with somebody else. So I said, What should I do to make myself happy? So next day I called my Kernel GS. I said, see, pass an instruction to all the Guru Fedquarters that from next week onwards I will start visiting the battalions. That means each district. Okay. And I said, when I go there, I'm not going to go that I come in the morning and go back in the evening. I will come one day and I'll go back the next day. Minimum two days I'll be spending. And in those two days, I want one school, one college, where I can have an audience about 200 to 300 people, more of the merrier, where I can give a motivational talk. Okay. And then started my journey. I was already reinventing myself without my realizing it. So when I went to Bagalpur, so their dean uh, like uh he was there uh when I gave my talk in the second half, and somebody was supposed to give a vote of thanks. But this gentleman and he came on the stage and he said actually I was not even planning to attend the today's session. But it so happened that today in the morning I was I to one major in Lau and I told you. He said, but that major said, he said, sir, it is it'll be nice if you attend. He says, and now having attended, I'm regretting that my daughter is in 11th class. Why did I not get her here? Okay. Okay. Now I don't think I could have got a better compliment. He says, I was not supposed to speak today. Somebody else was supposed to speak, but I'm speaking this because it's for my heart. And next 20 months, trust me, I was wherever I went, I was only doing these sessions with the children, motivational talks, and I told, I said, tell the principal, tell the dean whether they attend or not does not matter. I don't even need a rosebud because normally people think anybody who comes for a motivational talk is now expecting some some gift or something. I said, I need nothing, I just need audience. And and I guess in that process of those 22 months, I actually kind of was willing-nilly honing myself for the CV state. I did not realize it, but it was happening. The transformation was taking place. So that is why you know when when I retired and I came back in Beiradoon, two things happened. One was that, you know, what I did not tell you when I was at UC Sub Area here, you see what happens is Behradon is full of schools and colleges and uh a lot of uh premium schools and colleges, and they look forward to some senior army officer coming for their annual day functions.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

Trust me, in those 24-25 months that I was in in Deradon, any school, whether it was small or it was big, like Doom School or Vellem's, whosoever called me for any of their functions, I never said. So net result was when I came back to Deradun, I was already a known figure. I I did not need an introduction and I did not have a step upon it. That was the best part. So net I ended up being on the board of one school uh board of directors, then another school took me on their board, and then you know, because uh uh I was also being called by some of these news channels for their thing, so I got noticed at a lot of places. Then about two and a half years back, the Secretary and Defense Academy from Laknow they were setting up shop here. So I had gone for one of these podcasts, you know, Amarujala had conducted where they were also one of the co-sponsors. So when they saw me on the podium speaking and all, they said, Apnet Uh, join. I said, I already have my hands stolen. They said, Katha Saru, even if you give one hour in a week, whatever time you can give, but come. And trust me, I think uh though I was initially reluctant, but joining them got a different direction because now you see they are training people who are in getting into armed forces, whereas the other schools that is not their motto. And last two and a half years, being with them, you know, interacting with children, molding them, guiding them how to prepare for SSP, how to, you know, the do's and the don'ts, was a very, very satisfactory, you know, uh flying uh thing for me. And uh and I actually enjoy, you know, because you know, I'll tell you about one and a half months back, Monday when I got up, I was not, you know, like you are all you can't be always charged up. So one particular day when I got up, I said here energy levels are a little low. So I said, should I go today for the session or not? Then I said wait karma, I went there, I had a one and a half hours of session, and after one and a half hours of session, I found a battery fully charged. So, what do you learn from it? More you interact with the younger generation, more you give. Yes, right, the better it is for your own health. That is how I will put it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

Exactly, sir. I fully agree with that. But and yes, you are looking so charged up even today, and I can understand and feel your energy. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

So now you know from where I get my energy.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

So that is where I get my energy from.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

Right. And sir, I'm taking too much of your time. But if you know, uh at the end, if you could give one life-changing piece of advice to every young Indian wondering whether to join the forces, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:11

Uh see, firstly, I will talk in general, irrespective of whether we join armed forces or not, first and foremost, be a good human being. It's very important to be a good human being. Thereafter, try and pick up some leadership roles. Wherever you are, don't wait for somebody to tell you to do something. Take the initiative and take that role of leadership. Leaders are not required only in the armed forces. In any in every walk of life, you need leaders. And the way our country is today progressing, we need leaders by the dozen.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

So learn to pick up those baby steps now so that by the time you grow up, leadership comes naturally too.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:03

Hereafter, now you decide you want to join armed forces, focus there, become more social, have a positive approach towards life. Trust me, we don't need geniuses. We just need people with high average intelligence, with a little emotional portion. Because you are dealing with human beings. You have people under your command, and if you don't have emotions, then army is not the right place. Then go anywhere else because army is not a profession, it's a way of life. You're 24 by 7, it walked. If I tell you like last night, you know, there were a lot of uh like there was a cloud burst and all. So in the morning, uh you know, uh there was a lot of damage all around. If I tell you that my old soldiers, about half a dozen of them, called me up today morning uh Ishaji to say oh, I don't think I can ask for anything more than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

I I have retired more than seven years back, and those soldiers were with me 20 years back. They are trying to know about my well-being. I think uh I can't ask God anything more than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

Right, rightly said, sir. I fully agree, fully agree. Right. And sir, thank you, thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing such priceless wisdom with us today. Your stories have shown us that life in the armed forces is not just about wearing a uniform, it's about discipline, sacrifice, leadership, and unshakable commitment to serve. So, to every listener who dreams of a career in the defense forces, remember the army doesn't just train you to fight battles, it trains you to win in life with integrity, clarity, and purpose. So whether you choose to wear the olive green or follow a different path, let this conversation remind you the true success comes from service, self-belief and the willingness to give your best every single day. So, to you, sir, it has been an honor to learn from your journey. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the Couple Gupta K Airport Show. And if today's episode inspires you, yes, sir. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

I should thank you for giving me uh an opportunity to you know connect to your viewers. Thank you so much. Thank you, and thank you. Pleasure interacting with you and looking forward to meeting you someday in person.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

Definitely, sir. I would love to and feel honored to meeting you, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Bye bye, sir. Take care. Thank you, sir. Thank you. And to our listeners, thank you. Tuning to the Kapil Gupta Kreer Party Show. And if today's episode inspired you, share it with a young dreamer who needs a spark of courage. So until next time, stay curious, stay committed, and keep building a life of meaning. Thank you.